Spot the Not Question

Brother Chei presented an interesting question at the end of 'Spot the Not 3'.

Since God created everything, he created Satan also. His name was Lucifer, and he was the archangel for a while, until he sinned and God kicked him out of Heaven. So the question is two fold. Did God create sin? And the second part is, how many angels did Satan take with him?

Listen to the message in its entirety here:

Spot the Not

O myst'ry of iniquity
Who now can tell the score?
Who knows the why, the purpose of?
What you're existing for?
Indeed, the thought is most profound,
The carnal mind is numb,
Yet we perceive that God is GOD,
Creates thy evil sum.
Until we grasp this truth of God
We can't begin to know
His sovereignty, His victory,
The power He doth show.
Totality of His control,
The interplay withal
Of good and evil, while He brings
Glory out of the fall.
He holds the darkness in His hand
A servant to His plan,
And makes the blackness of the night
Reveal His love for man.
For after all is said and done,
The mystery fulfilled,
The universe shall know the depth
Of handiwork so skilled.
Iniquity shall have an end,
The Word on this is pure,
Its work complete, God shall be praised,
His grace shall e'er endure.[/

I wanted to allow Millard Erickson, biblical theologian, to weigh in on this point on satan and the demons:

"Theologians have recently shown a tendency to restructure the understanding of demons and Satan. One such attempt has of course been Rudolf Bultmann's program of demythologization. According to this and allied views, demons are merely mythological conceptions drawn from the culture of the day. In particular, the biblical presentation is believed to reflect the influence of Persian mythology. As appealing as this idea is superficially, it fails to take note that the Christian view contains nothing of the dualism so commonly found in Persian thought. The devil and demons are not an independent force opposed to God; their existence derives from God, although this existence is now distorted and contradicts its original source. Thus the view that sees a Persian origin in the biblical concept of demons is considerably flawed.....
2 Peter 2:4 says that 'God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment.' Jude 6 says that 'the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by Him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day.' The beings described in these two verses are clearly identified as angels who sinned and came under judgment. They must, then, like all the other angels, be created beings." (Christian Theology, 1983).

God can only create good (see Genesis account of Creation and James 1:17- "Every good and perfect gift coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.")

To say that God created an evil being would go against the clear teachings found in Scripture. God created "choice." Some people cannot live with that idea, and thus say that God created evil and and an evil satan. I learned a word in seminary for that type of thought: "Hogwash!"

i dont want to cause division, but get behind me satan. just kidding.

i am not sure what that "biblical theologian" said. wow... was he speaking english?
just because God cries out " Adam, Adam where are you?" doesnt mean that God doesnt know where He is.

but what about all the verses like this:

Isaiah 45:6-7 (King James Version)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Before He comes in us we are from our father Adam - God doesnt want to give adam a choice. Adam is dead.
He doesnt care what choice we make for Him with our earthy mind.
our salvation is not from adam's choice.
our Salvation is HIM. His life in us. His life is from above.
This is a new man in us. a new creation, not a new change of mind from making a choice.
the change of mind comes as an effect, not a cause.

His life is who He is. He is so big and so different - unselfish LOVE. I only had selfish love and i could not see this unselfish love to choose it.
the only God i could see was the God in my imagination - an idol.
i didnt have the eyes to see Him. the new man in me (Christ) gave me the eyes to see - and then i made the choice.

really it was Him that made the choice - He chose me - and it was Him that sperated me from my mother's womb.

We are a slave to either sin or a slave to Jesus - you cant leave your first master when you decide to have another master - no, the second master must buy you first. thank you Jesus.

Lets come together on common ground - God made satan, knowing just what satan would do - and perfectly willing to use what satan does for our GOOD - for everything is for our good. EVERYTHING. even evil. try saying that ten times fast.

He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden (where is the garden of the Lord), knowing just what adam would do - for He had slain the lamb beforehand.

like i stated before, you better "choose" this doctrine or i will... - oops, i mean i love you unselfishly.

"Now fear the LORD and serve Him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:14-15

Seems to be talking about the act of volition, doesn't he?

Have i ever mentioned that your are alot more handsome than weston. alot more! and smarter too.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, ...
Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us - in him - before the foundation of the world, ...
2 Thessalonians 2:13 ...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ...

the overall picture here is ... Father - what if i choose to do your lists of do's and dont's, and then look back and realize -

"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein;"

but it was the heart of Christ you wanted all along. and it is the heart of Christ that you are giving
"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD" oh "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection,"

" but if you are choosing to do these things than the heart of Christ is in you," you might say - HELLO, can you say pharisee or saul. the choice doesnt matter. the action doesnt matter. thats all out there, and can be burned up (non-eternal). we dont get points ( neither does satan by the way ). God doesnt weigh the works - He puts them in the fire to see where they originated, From HIM or from us.

why do you do the choice? thats the question. your heart can lie to you about this. Lord help us to not choose to do this or that, but only be the expression of You on Earth.
this is the rest of God - non choosing - a non-choice, just being, because of the work that YOU DID. YOU and YOU alone.

I could of chose to fulfill everyone of your laws to perfection and it would of been nothing because i never knew You - save You showed yourself to me. the choice ( to do the law or not ) was only there to restrain me until the time when i would do the law, not by choice, but by nature. Because You came to me - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,

I do have an explanation for this one. It was typically the disciple that chose the rabbi to follow, but this was not the case with Jesus, he chose his disciples. Not in any pre-destination sense [uh-oh, I used the P word.], but in the classical sense of calling them to be his followers.

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us - in him - before the foundation of the world

If you read down a little ways from this, you will find:

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.

So it sounds like they made a choice to believe, and were then marked with a seal.

create light and darkness,

happiness and sorrow.

I, the LORD, do all of this.

Isaiah 45:7 [CEV]

This is the same verse you mentioned above but in the Contemporary English Version. This version is a direct translation from the Hebrew and Greek, whereas the KJV is translated into latin, and then English. I am not trying to start a big debate on Bible versions, but we have to look at a few translations. The NKJV uses the work Calamity. The NIV uses the word disaster. ESV uses calamity. And the Westminster translation says: יֹוצֵר אֹור וּבֹורֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלֹום וּבֹורֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃ סיֹוצֵר אֹור וּבֹורֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלֹום וּבֹורֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃ ס

The original word used there, 'rah', doesn't necessarily mean evil. It can also mean calamity, or disasters, or even human comfort issues.

The thing I have never understood about predestination, is that if it were true, why even try? If God chose us to go to heaven or hell, is there anything we can do on earth to change that? Might as well just give up. Right?

I believe I accepted Christ's gift on the cross. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else. I confessed that I was nothing apart from Him, and was full of sin. And it is only through His grace that I am saved.

I believe that God knows where we are going to end up, because he understands the choices we are going to make, and the consequences of those choices. But I don't believe he makes those choices for us.

And everyone knows I am the best looking in my family.

Yes, I agree that God is the author and perfecter of my faith. I believe that it is His precious gift to give to every person repentance. I believe that it is only by His Spirit that anyone can believe. I bring nothing good to God, only rubbish. My "righteous" acts are as filthy rags unto God. He is good, I am evil. There is nothing good within me, only evil and that continually.

But we have to start with the Imago Dei (or Image of God). What did Adam and Eve have that I never had? They were created with a human soul that was perfect, without blemish, without sin. Once they sinned, what did they lose?

With what were everyone of their descendants born?
A sinful nature would be my answer. A sinful nature that could only choose evil, unless...
Unless by God's sovereign choice, He allows us to be courted or wooed by His Holy Spirit that would enable us to choose Him. We can only love Him because He first loved us. And God so loved the world...(all sinners).

Back to the previous question. So did they lose the image of God? If they didn't lose the image of God, what happened to it? Was it marred? Was it tainted? Was it warped? The answer to each of these is YES. I believe that when Adam sinned, he retained his "image of God," but was inclined toward evil and that continually.

In that marring of the image of God, the LORD kept it within His sovereign economy that humankind would be able to choose God. We are marred, yes, but not to the point that we cannot use our God-given ability to choose Him by His Spirit's prompting (which He gives to "the world", remember).

Jesus said to His followers, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow Me." Luke 9:23.

Again, God's Spirit "blowing" on us and then by that grace, choosing to follow Him. All three of the requirements for discipleship have to do with our use of volition. God-given volition. God is not willing that any (the world) should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Why would God not want any to perish and then make some to perish?

You love your wife and she loves you. Agape love says, "I love you even if it hurts, if I get nothing in return." God loves us with this kind of love. A love that keeps on loving, even if His creation does not love Him back. How much fun would it be if you were married to a robot? You could "program" that robotic woman to love you and minister to you, but it would be so static and well... robotic. God is not static or robotic, but Creative! He, in His sovereignty, thought outside the box and created us in a way that we could choose Him or reject Him, all within His thought and plan. And doing this without ever violating our free will! How does He do this? Because He is God. His thoughts are above our thoughts, and His ways are above our ways. A God-given use of volition. Amazing, huh?

this could go on a long long long time. i am not responding to "correct" you, but noly because i think that it is fun. wee!
we are a bunch of monett church of the nazarene losers. but...

actually, if you go to strong's and look up this " evil " thats in Isaiah 45:7 - it does mean evil.

1) bad, evil a) bad, disagreeable, malignant b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery) c) evil, displeasing d) bad (of its kind - landwater, etc) e) bad (of value) f) worse than, worst (comparison) g) sad, unhappy h) evil (hurtful) i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition) j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically) 1) in general, of persons, of thoughts 2) deeds, actions

and comes from a root word that actually means: to be the evil - and to be broken.

1) to be bad, be evil a) (Qal) 1) to be displeasing 2) to be sad 3) to be injurious, be evil 4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically) b) (Hiphil) 1) to do an injury or hurt 2) to do evil or wickedly 3) mischief (participle) 2) to break, shatter a) (Qal) 1) to break 2) broken (participle) 3) to be broken b) (Hithpolel) to be broken, be broken in pieces, be broken asunder

this word rah is translated evil more than all the other words its translated, combined. if they translated it disaster or mischief or calamity everytime, it would make God look kinda dumb. the only word that makes since to translate everytime rah is used - is EVIL.

after all, it is the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." not the "tree of knowledge of good and disaster." its the same word used - rah.

that brings me to - "Why would God not want any to perish and then make some to perish? "
thats kinda like saying "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
i mean, after all, He could have not put the second tree there in the garden, but He had a plan for the lamb was already slain. He killed the lamb before the choice - before He could tell the difference in Esau and Jacob He chose Jacob, jacob coudnt boast - jacob couldnt say
" God came 99% - put i went the other 1%" thats what the other religions teach. you do this and that, and then you will come to God. Choice is a work.

what i am really saying is that it is not a choice, but it is Christ being placed in you - a new man being formed and your old man ( that you think made the choice ) dying.

maybe you guys are skipping over verses like this: it is a big bible.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

i gotta go, man, if i had alittle more time, i just know i could convence you.
just kidding.

Wow. Every time you quote a verse I have to look it up in another translation to make sense of it. I doth hatheth willeth runneth overeth... ...

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

I agree with this. I can do nothing to secure my own salvation. It is only through God's Mercy.

if they translated it disaster or mischief or calamity everytime, it would make God look kinda dumb.

I didn't say every time. I was indicating that perhaps in this particular verse, it didn't mean evil.

God came 99% - put i went the other 1%" thats what the other religions teach. you do this and that, and then you will come to God. Choice is a work.

I would think that it would be more prideful to think I was one of the few that God chose to give salvation to, than to think that I accepted his gift of salvation that was offered to everyone.

Speaking of verses... what about verses like John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but
have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting
anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved.

---

But once again, if God chose for you to go to hell, can you change that?
If he chose you to go to heaven, can you change that?

With that line of thinking, I would simply sit back and enjoy the ride.

It is all about God's choice. And God chose Christ. And Christ said, "You didn't choose Me, but I chose you."

(The following paragraph comes from Wikipedia) "Karl Barth's doctrine of election involves a firm rejection of the notion of an absolute decree. In keeping with his Christo-centric methodology, Barth argues that to ascribe the salvation or damnation of humanity to an abstract absolute decree is to make some part of God more final and definitive than God's saving act in Jesus Christ. God's absolute decree, if one may speak of such a thing, is God's gracious decision to be for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ. With the earlier Reformed tradition, Barth retains the notion of double predestination but makes Jesus Himself the object of both divine election and reprobation simultaneously: Jesus embodies both God's election of humanity and God's rejection of human sin."

Pretty good stuff, huh?

And now in His sovereignty God allows us to choose Him. It rains on the just and the unjust. This is called common grace. Grace to every man. This common grace or "prevenient grace" gives everyone the opportunity to choose Him. Thanks be to God that even Calvinists are given a choice!

Time for the Oddball to weigh in here. As Noel has stated earlier, I have a "different" approach to the Word.
Maybe we should begin with the opriginal quote that led into the beautiful discussion:

Since God created everything, he created Satan also. His name was Lucifer, and he was the archangel for a while, until he sinned and God kicked him out of Heaven. So the question is two fold. Did God create sin? And the second part is, how many angels did Satan take with him?

The second part--concerning Lucifer--is something that is seldom challenged. But, if we consider the passage from which the teaching comes (Isa. 14:12-20), there are some questions that must be asked.
How often in Scripture do we take a prophetic look backward? That's what has been done with this passage. We read back into it what we have been taught long before we begin to look at what it says. Read closely, this is not a teaching about satan, for he is never mentioned. To say Lucifer refers to satan is to once again read into the Word what we have been taught. The doctrine of Lucifer as an archangel is no where supported in Scripture. The word "Lucifer" is a transliteration from the Vulgate, and means light bearer. This is a prophecy against the king of Babylon.
So, before I go any further, I need the professor to clear up for me how we get to determine that this passage must be read as historical.

We also get some information from Ezekiel 28. This is a prophecy against the king of Tyre, but once again it appears as if the prophet is referring to Satan. Perhaps Satan was dwelling in the presence of the kings?

We look backward on several passages from Revelation. Especially Revelation 12, which seems to be an attempt to give a panoramic view of ages past to today's age. I would not call it a prophetic look backward, but a God-view of created time and history, remembering that God is outside of time and is not encapsulated in it.

(the following is taken from Wikipedia)
Lucifer is a name frequently given to Satan in Christian belief. This usage as a reference to a fallen angel stems from a particular interpretation of a passage in the Bible (Isaiah 14:3-20) that speaks of someone who is given the name of "Day Star" or "Morning Star" (in Latin, Lucifer) as fallen from heaven. The same Latin word is used of the morning star in 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere with no relation to Satan. However, in many writings later than those of the Bible the Latin word has been used, without being translated as "Morning Star" and the like, as a proper name with which to designate Satan.
In Latin, the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the "Morning Star" (the planet Venus in its dawn appearances).[2] The Latin Vulgate version of the Bible used this word twice to refer to the Morning Star: once in 2 Peter 1:19 to translate the Greek word (Phosphoros),[3] which has exactly the same literal meaning of "Light-Bringer" that "Lucifer" has in Latin; and once in Isaiah 14:12 to translate which also means "Morning Star". In the latter passage the title of "Morning Star" is given to the tyrannous Babylonian king, who the prophet says is destined to fall. This passage was later applied to the prince of the demons, and so the name "Lucifer" came to be used for Satan, and was popularized in works such as Dante Alighieri's Inferno and John Milton's Paradise Lost, but for English speakers the greatest influence has been its use in the King James Version (more modern English versions translate the term as "Morning Star" or "Day Star").
A similar passage in Ezekiel 28:11-19 regarding the "king of Tyre" was also applied to Satan, contributing to the traditional picture of Satan and his fall." (end quote)

My understanding is that we make large inferences toward putting together the pieces of what happened before we arrived on the earth. When Jesus said that he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning...we tend to hook that together with other passages of Scripture that coincide: Isaiah, Ezekiel, Revelation (all of which have prophetic tendencies).

Maybe we should adopt the Brethren church motto: "Where the Bible is silent, we are silent!"

Okay. Then how do we understand "He was a murderer from the beginning."? (Jn. 8:44) and "..for the devil sins from the beginning."? ( 1 Jn. 3:8 )
Are we to understand these as "Satan's beginning?" Or, do we supply a beginning that fits our understanding of a particular doctrine?
I find it difficult to say that John meant that satan was a murderer from the first time he committed murder; or that he was a liar from the first time he told a lie.
To say that he was a murderer/liar from his beginning as satan disregards the application of Isa. 14 to this being which says that iniquity was found in him. Iniquity must be present before there can be sin.
(I think this is getting thornier than I can contend with )