moral ethics

Is it right to lie in order to save a life?
The commandment says not to lie?right?
What about a situation when one lies to protect a life?take the case of Rahab who lied to save the lives of the two jewish spies or more recently ...CorriTen Boom who lied to save the jews from the Nazi death camps.
When two moral ethics are in conflict with each other, the christian takes the higher of the two ethics and follows it.Showing mercy or lying?in some unique situations , not telling the truth does not amount to a lie.This is called the theory of graded asolutism.God does not hold us responsible to follow the lower law in view of the overriding obligation to follow the higher law.
What is your view?I would love to hear your feed back.
Sringara Nicklas

Who determines whether something is a higher law or a lower law?

God

Okay, God does determine moral hierarchy. But would it be okay for me to steal medicine for my dying father if I do not have the money? God says, "Thou shall not steal."

God says, "Thou shall not kill." Did God want David to kill Goliath?

Do you remember Hannah's prayer -- several lines from that read: THE LORD KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, AND HE WILL JUDGE YOUR DEEDS. THE LORD KILLS, THE LORD GIVES LIFE.

Referring to Rahab, I definitely would have hid and protected the lives of the Jewish spies. I would not steal medicine for a dying person (no reflection on your father, Noel ) but steadfastly pray for physical healing.

David confronted Goliath saying, "I come to you IN THE NAME OF THE LORD...THE VERY GOD WHOM YOU HAVE DEFIED...TODAY THE LORD WILL CONQUER YOU." David prayed prior to battling Goliath. David was victorious. That leads me to believe that God wanted Goliath killed. All of this goes back to HOW DOES GOD ANSWER PRAYER!!! How are we positive the answer was God's answer!

seek first the Kingdom of God - which is joy in the Holy Ghost, righteousness and PEACE -

Search out the Peace. Follow the Peace, go the way that the Peace leads you. let the Peace have Kingdom Authority (reign) or "rule in your hearts" because - "He is our peace," Ephesians 2:14 and He is " the God of peace," Romans 15:33 if you are doing it - whatever it is - with peace, this is one way that you will know its HIM. and most of the time if it is from Him - its not gonna make any sense. His ways are not ours, and the peace isnt from us either, Its Him - not a human emotion.

so if we are in the middle of this crazy thing He is doing - and you hear some people saying "Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do," - ask Him for some PEACE - which is Himself. we cant discern if it is from Him or not with our minds. only by the SPIRIT.

you could be on your way to the cross ready to die a horrible death and still walk in peace,and you could be cast out of the city and stoned and still say "lay not this sin to their charge," all the time knowing it was from God and in His will because He sent you a peace that passes all understanding. He let you see it by the SPIRIT. your mind would of never said this was from GOD.

notice that stephen didnt try to "protect" himself by doing the "lesser" of the two sins. he didnt try to change the circumstances, he didnt try to change anything - but thier hearts. the inside.

No, Jesus was Like a lamb led to the slaughter - we are to take on a Lamb like nature. - this is submission.
not a defend our way, our life or defend this or that nature - thats Gods job to defend.
although He will use us for that too, but wheres the peace?

Did God want David to kill Goliath?

I think David said it best in Ps. 111:7 wherein he states, "The works of HIS HAND(S) are verity (truth) and judgment."

In His right hand are His blessings - and in His left hand are His curses.
Goliath just got knocked upside the head with God's left hand.
After all - Goliath is a type of that 6 cubit ( 6 being the number of man ) Giant inside us - Fleshly Reason. In fact - I have heard that if you add the Hebrew letters up in Goliath that they equal 666.
David ( Christ ) who's name means LOVE is the one that has come to slay him - not with sword or spear - but in the name of the Lord.
picking 5 ( the number of grace ) rocks and using one ROCK and hitting the forehead - hmmm. what a beautiful picture of Jesus renewing our mind.
So - even in God's judgment of Goliath ( the judgment is death ) - it is executed out from LOVE (David.)

when we forget about the left hand of God we have made God to be a one armed or one handed Being - deformed.

with all that said - there is another way. which was painted with type and shadow in the old testament and made reality in the new.
David was called to kill the flesh of Goliath and feed it to the birds of the air. Jesus was called to kill the flesh of Goliath in us, and lift it in the air so that the world might know there is a God.

The word "right" as used with "hand" is generally the Hebrew word "yamiym" meaning STRONGER, MORE DEXTEROUS.
The word for "left" is "smowl" meaning DARK.

the left hand is the dark hand - i better shy away from that topic...
except to say that even Goliath was brought up for the very purpose we read about, and it wasnt the history lesson of an actual person called david killing an actual giant called goliath. but it was for the purpose of showing us the mystery in the story - the wonderful work of Jesus.
thats what was happening - a great artist was painting a great picture - can you see it?

I still believe that due to our choice to sin, we have seen God's moral hierarchy. It is not God's perfect will, but His permissive will; and there is a great difference!

I think I understand - not sure - your gonna have to learn to dumb it down a little for me in particular...

your saying that stuff like the fall, satan, death, sickness, ... just "sin" or the negative in general - is God's permissive will, but not what He really wants...
basically that God is letting something that is less than desirable happen even though He wants something else because that is the way the dice landed and now He is going along with it because of that whole "choice" thing He threw in there from the beginning?

My thoughts - if there was just a tiny bit of anything that wasn't in His will ... It would utterly destroy HIM.
because if you take a tiny bit of power out of an infinite amount - the tiny bit is infinite also - just try dividing infinity by 1% - the 1% turns into infinity also.
what i am trying to say there is - if God gave us 1% power to "will" a different "will" other than what He wants ( even if it is 2nd best ) - then both parties would have infinite WILL POWER... because the 1% of infinity is infinity. and that makes two parties that are infinite, and if there are two parties that are infinite than there are none... there cant be two "ALLS" it is utterly impossible to have 2 all powerful Gods. and it is impossible for something that is "ALL" to be subtracted from.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of ( in conformity with ) his own will:

the amplified says - Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will,


No plan B's with someone that is all powerful... of second best.
That means no reaction. Everything is in agreement with His will - and Everything means Everything. Even me writing this not even knowing if it is what you meant.

dont really know where i am going, just blabbing, sorry...

God is sovereign, which means that He is King in His Kingdom. But even this King allows for permissive will stuff. Remember, this is God we are talking about. He can be sovereign and allow for us to make eternal decisions. I do not want to put God in a box, or tie His hands with His own law (as if we can back God into a corner with His word- which satan tried to do in tempting Jesus). In God's economy, He knows all and allows us to fall into one of two categories: Receiving Him or rejecting Him. God is not willing (there's our word) that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But we know that all will not come to repentance. The road to heaven is narrow and few shall find it...

Jesus scolded His disciples with their lack of faith. Jesus sighed deeply at the unbelief of His closest followers. Jesus always got angry at sin. Jesus' perfect will would have been for the disciples to have raw and radical belief, but He continued to work in His Father's economy of free will.

I have a perfect will for my children. If they do not hit the bull's eye, there is disappointment on my side, but also continual love (this is the permissive side).

We know that Jesus was slain before the creation of the world. God knew that we would need a Savior. It is not God's will that we would live worldly, but He does allow for it. Our choosing away from Him or against Him never takes Him by surprise, but it always breaks His heart.

God makes Himself vulnerable. That is called love.

I am only continuing out of my own "likeness" of the topic - not because your wrong and i am trying to change your mind.
but right now i have nothing to say - shucks.

oh yea - this one thing - eternal decisions - what is that?

I have a perfect will for my children. If they do not hit the bull's eye, there is disappointment on my side, but also continual love (this is the permissive side).

This is kinda of a good parallel, NOT... ( just kidding ) " YOUR " children reach any goal that you have set before them - by their own power and will. They reach it by their own Choice and then bring it to fulfillment by their own power... your children don't " hit the bull's eye " and attain to your will - by the power of you, their father... they do it on their own. and any Mark you have for them to attain to or hit - is not out of their reach and it is very attainable for them... I assume.

God on the other hand... He set His " Bull's Eye " for His Children so far out of their reach that they could never attain to it - no matter what, it is so high that we cant even see it unless He shows it to us. We never attain to it except by His Power ( and by His Will )... He did this on purpose - We cant decide and we cant fulfill. We are nothing - and He is everything. EVERYTHING!!!

Boy - He did really set Himself up for Disappointment - if He put His trust ( faith ) in us to " Hit His Bull's Eye "
but He didn't do that - He didn't put His Trust in US - His plan from before " Let There Be Light " was for the day when He Himself would perform all His Will in us. When He Himself would Hit the Mark as us. First in Jesus - then in Us.

Christ ( as in the Logos ) is never vulnerable = or weak in anyway - being vulnerable doesn't define Love. that is the worlds "righteous" definition of love.
He is Love - not the act of letting yourself be hurt.
on the cross He wasn't vulnerable - He didnt let His guard down - He didnt get upset or let Himself become hurt by what the people were doing - because it was He Himself that was actually doing it... the God in Him. If He was the one in control of the whole thing - then if He got hurt or disappointed it would be at Himself. but God wasn't hurt - it was a sweet savour unto the LORD - it pleased HIM. Humanities biggest failure pleased God the Most... WHAT? thats backwards. when is the Church gonna learn - in our weakness He is made Strong.
While we our doing things that we think hurt Him so much - He is saying - " that pleases Me that you CAN'T do it... it makes me happy you fall short - because My grace is sufficient for thee and it is My grace that will abound to every good work in you. - by the power of Christ in you." it Is HE that will do the work.

I want to shout it " I CAN'T." - so - therefore i myself also take glory in my infirmities. because when i miss the " Bull's Eye " it only makes me marvel that much more when He doesn't Miss. How can He miss the mark - when the mark is HIM.

The mark is HIM - that is why it pleases Him we cant hit it - because if we hit it, we would be like Him out of our own ability. we would become as gods - sound familiar? We would become as god through our own climbing, are own doing, our own choice... impossible.
It pleases Him that we miss it, it please Him we cant even see it, ... this doesn't make Him hurt or vulnerable.

He is the one that made US vulnerable or capable of being hurt... The creature was subjected to vanity - not " Will " ingly, but by reason of HIM! that verse says it all ( i don't want to make it seem like you have your verses and i have mine, and we make them fight each-other ) but the verse does say that He is the one that subjected us to Vanity - and Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher; ALL IS VANITY.
All is vanity - the amplified says " False " all is false and full of vanity in this realm of the natural - and it was God Himself that subjected us to it.
that means He made us subject to it. He made Us its slave - we are the vanities subject.
NOT so we could climb ourselves out from the vanity - neither so we can free ourselves from the subjection... for NO man hath ascended up to heaven.
when you said even a king allows his subjects some freedom - well, the king of vanities does not allow his subjects to go over to the Kingdom of Righteousness...

the gap is too big anyway -- if you are from the kingdom of vanities, you could search your whole life-time and never find the Kingdom of God... You have to be shown where it is at. You have to die from the kingdom of vanities and be re-born from with-in the Kingdom of God to be a citizen of that Kingdom. there is no pass-port or green card that can take you there. you have to be re-born from WITH-IN - and who is able to enter into their mothers womb a second time? Again... I CAN'T! and God says - I CAN!

it was never His plan for us to attain - He started us out unable - because It is His good pleasure to fulfill the work for us... In US.
it is that 1% of infinity again - which means - if we do 1% of the work ( choice ) and the infinity does the other 99% ( sanctification ) - then Both get 100% of of the credit or glory. God does not share His Glory with another.

an infinite being has to do all the work - or none of the work...

Remember - I speak in a Bob Ross voice.

And God's work is to delegate a portion to us. Isn't that cool?